Jeffrey! Yi! Thank you both. I love knowing deep readers’ relationships with a work. Having both of yours is such a beautiful demonstration of the way writing stretches out, mycelial-like, to be part of lives and conversations and formative ideas in so many different ways.
Thank you, Holly, for loving the piece! I was delighted when Jeffrey invited me to collaborate. I am looking forward to more collaboration with fellow like-minded writers and readers!
Fascinating! I actually remember this book from my childhood in Vancouver BC, which has a large Chinese population. If I recall correctly, it was one of the books that many Chinese students carried around with them in their backpacks, along with the Canadian novels we were required to read. Now I'm interested to read it myself :)
Thank you, Yi and Jeffrey, for the paired stories of your relationship with this novel. I read a lot of Chinese literature back in college, mostly in translation. I may have read part of the book but I was more interested in poetry. A year of classical Chinese (all in the original written form) broke my brain. My biggest regret is that I didn’t continue reading or speaking modern Chinese. Am very tempted to buy a copy now (in English) knowing how important it is to both of you, and how central to world literature. A beautiful post.
Thank you, Roblyn! I certainly can appreciate how hard it can be to truly master a second language as an adult, and Chinese is a very difficult language to master regardless. If I could be of any help in reigniting your interest in picking up Chinese (even Chinese poetry) again, you know where to find me! :)
Thank you, Yi! Your offer is very tempting. I was in a program that taught Chinese in an unfortunate way: two years of modern Mandarin, followed by one year of classical Chinese, then a third year of Mandarin. By then, I’d forgotten how to speak it! It made me feel incredibly sad. I still feel a great sense of loss. Your story of discovering the book and reading it is wonderful. I hope you share more of your experiences with us.
There is no wrong way (or wrong time) to learn a language. I'd be delighted if I could be of any help!
I too, learned English as a second language; I don't feel I have mastered it, but that did not stop me from writing in English. My career has had twists and turns; I am working hard on getting my passion back. And I am doing both on Substack :).
That’s a great tale of persistence and determination. I’ve had twists and turns as well. That’s why my Substack is called Writer, interrupted. It’s been a real joy to write again, after the many times I stopped throughout my life. Substack is a genuine community. I’m so happy we’ve met!
Thank you, Mary! I came much later to Chinese literature (apart from reading some Arthur Waley translations as a young man). The amazing Tang and Song poetry is enough of a universe in itself, isn’t it? But I hope you can get around to reading The Dream. It’s a magical world that, to quote Kimberly Warner, will tease its way into your heart! And full of poetry, too.
I hope so, too. Right now my life is centered around writing to the point where I’m stumbling over TBR piles all over the place. It’s a trade-off. Of course, spending so much time on Substack counts as reading, doesn’t it? That’s what I keep telling myself.
Selfishly, I hope you continue to centre on your writing, as each of your essays is such a wonder! And yes, I agree that Subatsack reading very much does count. While whole books/novels are such a joy, I sometimes think we privilege them too much compared to compelling writing that comes in other forms (or in no form at all).
The dream of the red mansion is one of my favorite Chinese classics books that sits on my nightstand for many years and never got tired of reading it. Nice to read both Jeffrey and Yi’s perspectives and personal experience with the book.
Thank you both for the stories of your relationship and stories around this important work of literature. I am a docent in the Botanical Gardens of The Huntington, also home of the Huntington Library. In the last 25 years an exquisite Chinese Garden has been added and is an adaptation of a scholar garden from the 18th century. If you are ever in Los Angeles, it is worth a visit to Pasadena to take in its beauty. There has been careful scholarship in its creation. There is a large lake and multiple structures such as "The Love of the Lotus Pavillion", all having references to some poem or art or purpose from that time. All of the stone is from Lake Tai (Taihu Limestone) near Suzhou. The carved wood, the stone mosaic grounds, the clay roof tiles were all made in China and installed by Chinese artisans. Jeffrey, I will DM a few photos to you. Thank you for highlighting this Splendour, not completely vanished.
Thank you, Leslie! The images you sent are lovely. Chinese gardens like this have a special magic—and many happy memories for me! I’m grateful to you for your tips and links!
Thanks for sharing the information about the Chinese Garden, Leslie! I will make sure to visit it the next time I am in the area! I am going on a trip in the coming spring, and Suzhou/Lake Tai is on the itinerary!
That sounds like a wonderful trip. I have heard that several of the scholar gardens in the Suzhou area have been restored. this is from 'The Huntington' website https://huntington.org/chinese-garden.
Thank you, Leslie! I recall with fondness such beautiful gardens in China. I visited some in Suzhou many years ago, before this restoration work, I think.
Oh, how I love a good story centered around a novel! The idea of Yi discovering The Dream of the Red Chamber under her mother's pillow in her dorm room during Communist China, and Jeffrey using it as diplomatic 'small talk' is the stuff of stories we love to read and watch. And you've convinced me that I need to read it ASAP! xo
I am afraid that I do not know this book, but both of your emotive memories of reading it have encouraged me to add it to my 'to read list'. And the accompanying illustrations look gorgeous.
Thanks, June! I think I discover a book I haven't heard of but want now to read almost every day on Substack (often from you!). I think that's one of the powerful things about this platform
In my teen years, I developed an ambition to read the greatest novel of each major language, preferably in the original language. Sadly, like Jenny in the song who made up her mind to learn foreign languages and then 'In twenty-seven languages, Jenny couldn't say no", my dream of becoming reading fluent in the major languages kept hitting roadblocks. So, I have settled for reading translations - I am currently reading Edith Grossman's excellent translation of 'Don Quixote'. When I compiled my list of classic novels in my teens, I wasn't aware there was a great Chinese novel (I couldn't do internet searches then). Now I know, and another book is added to the to be read list.
Thank you for sharing this, Holly! I hope you are enjoying the wonders of "Don Quixote"! As Yi Xue has said, there are other great Chinese novels to choose from (though I'd start with The Dream). And a modern (20th-century) classic is “Fortress Besieged” by Qian Zhongshu.
Years ago, I tried reading Don Quixote in Spanish (I still have the copy) and felt like I wasn't understanding enough to continue. But now, reading it in English, it sometimes feels like I'm revisiting familiar territory - I think that while I wasn't understanding the finer details in Spanish, I was still understanding some of the larger narrative.
Thanks for the recommendations. I set a goal of one great novel from each major language because there are many books and so little time to read them!
You're right about the limited time! I'd be interested to see your list of novels on that list! I haven't set myself a target (yet), but I feel that reading novels in translation has given me access to aspects of culture that might be hard to get in other ways.
I added books to the list as I became aware of their existence and cultural importance. Looking back, I don't think I had found that many - it is a bit shocking how little English speakers know of the cultural treasures of other languages. Also, the most influential novel is often debated. So here is my short list:
Russian: There is no consensus about the most influential - I read Tolstoy's 'War and Peace' in my teens and Dostoevsky's 'The Brothers Karamazov' last year.
French: In my teens, I read a lot of translated popular French novels by Dumas and Verne (I have also read Verne's 'Le tour du monde en 80 jours' in French), but my favorite was the abridged translation of 'Les Miserables' that I read. I read the first two parts of 'Les Miserables' (Fantine & Cosette) in French, but never finished it. I kept getting lost in Hugo's interminable descriptions.
Italian: I have yet to find a copy of a translation of Alessandro Manzoni's 'The Betrothed', but I hope to one day.
Norwegian: I didn't learn of the existence of Sigrid Unset's 'Kristen Lavransdatter' until adulthood, but it is on my to be read someday list.
Persian: It is an epic historical poem, not a novel, but I would like to find a copy of the 'Shahnameh' in translation - so far I have only found abridged paraphrases. I learned a lot about how much can be lost in such abridged and paraphrased translation from another Persian work. In childhood, I loved reading the sanitized, paraphrased, and abridged version of 'Scheherazade', titled in English as 'Arabian Nights', but when I read, as an adult, an actual translation of the original, it was much darker and more disturbing.
I haven't found any kind of clear guidance on where to start in Indian literature. I am aware of novels like 'Devdas', but once again, translations aren't easy to find.
Thank you for sharing, Holly! Some of those are familiar to me, some new, which makes it a great list from my perspective. And I agree how little we seem to know of writing from other cultures in general. You've got me thinking about new works to explore and I'm grateful for that.
I'm sure there are! My teenage interest was in reading at least the most influential novel - for example, while there are many great Spanish novels, 'Don Quixote' was the one that laid the foundation.
I'm currently at the beginning stages of a retranslation project of 紅樓夢. As I've dived into the novel and its world, I can't help but be impressed by the cynicism Cao Xueqin shows for the world around him. Despite the beauty of his poetry, his magnificent descriptions, and the amazing detail with which he describes each character, there's an underlying feeling of despair and hopelessness in the face of irreversible decline.
The characters are more well rounded than in any novel I can think of. Lin Daiyu is a powerful character with many strengths and flaws. Xue Baochai is far from being just a foil to Lin Daiyu (which is how David Hawkes tends to portray her); she's actually a strong character in her own right, and winds up one of the victims of a world gone mad. And Jia Baoyu is simply fascinating.
Anyway - check out my translation project if you wish: https://redchamber.blog I seriously think the entire book needs to be reconsidered by scholars — particularly Western literary scholars who are stuck with translations that, honestly, are quite mediocre.
Daniel, I agree with your analysis of 紅樓夢 (and the translations of this gigantic work)- there is a reason why an "army" of scholars formed something called 紅學. Philosophies of fatalism and predestination, reflections of literature and culture, and implied morals of humanity were all hidden behind the sentimental love stories and hopeless decline of a family story. It is a Herculean translation task for such a work! I look forward to following your work progress!
BTW, I bought a set (two volumes) of "说红楼梦" by 蒋勋 on my recent trip to Shanghai, per recommendation. Haven't read it yet.
The really cool thing about diving really deep into it is seeing how Cao Xueqin would make these really sly intertextual references to other famous works.
I discovered today a small reference to 《醉花荫》by the famous Song dynasty poet 李清照, for example, which is a poem that has a mood that feels almost like it was written by Lin Daiyu. And that famous ending to that poem, "莫道不銷魂，簾卷西風，人比黃花瘦"... I don't think it can be translated, haha. I've got an article about that coming out, though not until April 10, I think...
But that's the fun part - it's the journey, not the destination!
Thank you, Daniel, for your fascinating comments and for sharing information about your translation. All great literature needs great translations if it's to thrive across cultures and through time. I will check it out and I wish you luck.
Jeffrey! Yi! Thank you both. I love knowing deep readers’ relationships with a work. Having both of yours is such a beautiful demonstration of the way writing stretches out, mycelial-like, to be part of lives and conversations and formative ideas in so many different ways.
Thank you, Holly, for loving the piece! I was delighted when Jeffrey invited me to collaborate. I am looking forward to more collaboration with fellow like-minded writers and readers!
Yeah, collaborations are such a joy! As is Jeffrey. ;)
Writing as mycelium - perfect. Connecting different peoples thoughts, invisibly and out of sight.
Fascinating! I actually remember this book from my childhood in Vancouver BC, which has a large Chinese population. If I recall correctly, it was one of the books that many Chinese students carried around with them in their backpacks, along with the Canadian novels we were required to read. Now I'm interested to read it myself :)
Hi Alicia, Thank you for commenting, and I hope you get to read the novel one day!
I plan to re-read it myself! :) Thanks, Alicia!
Thank you, Yi and Jeffrey, for the paired stories of your relationship with this novel. I read a lot of Chinese literature back in college, mostly in translation. I may have read part of the book but I was more interested in poetry. A year of classical Chinese (all in the original written form) broke my brain. My biggest regret is that I didn’t continue reading or speaking modern Chinese. Am very tempted to buy a copy now (in English) knowing how important it is to both of you, and how central to world literature. A beautiful post.
Thank you, Roblyn! I certainly can appreciate how hard it can be to truly master a second language as an adult, and Chinese is a very difficult language to master regardless. If I could be of any help in reigniting your interest in picking up Chinese (even Chinese poetry) again, you know where to find me! :)
Thank you, Yi! Your offer is very tempting. I was in a program that taught Chinese in an unfortunate way: two years of modern Mandarin, followed by one year of classical Chinese, then a third year of Mandarin. By then, I’d forgotten how to speak it! It made me feel incredibly sad. I still feel a great sense of loss. Your story of discovering the book and reading it is wonderful. I hope you share more of your experiences with us.
There is no wrong way (or wrong time) to learn a language. I'd be delighted if I could be of any help!
I too, learned English as a second language; I don't feel I have mastered it, but that did not stop me from writing in English. My career has had twists and turns; I am working hard on getting my passion back. And I am doing both on Substack :).
That’s a great tale of persistence and determination. I’ve had twists and turns as well. That’s why my Substack is called Writer, interrupted. It’s been a real joy to write again, after the many times I stopped throughout my life. Substack is a genuine community. I’m so happy we’ve met!
Thank you, Mary! I came much later to Chinese literature (apart from reading some Arthur Waley translations as a young man). The amazing Tang and Song poetry is enough of a universe in itself, isn’t it? But I hope you can get around to reading The Dream. It’s a magical world that, to quote Kimberly Warner, will tease its way into your heart! And full of poetry, too.
I hope so, too. Right now my life is centered around writing to the point where I’m stumbling over TBR piles all over the place. It’s a trade-off. Of course, spending so much time on Substack counts as reading, doesn’t it? That’s what I keep telling myself.
Selfishly, I hope you continue to centre on your writing, as each of your essays is such a wonder! And yes, I agree that Subatsack reading very much does count. While whole books/novels are such a joy, I sometimes think we privilege them too much compared to compelling writing that comes in other forms (or in no form at all).
The dream of the red mansion is one of my favorite Chinese classics books that sits on my nightstand for many years and never got tired of reading it. Nice to read both Jeffrey and Yi’s perspectives and personal experience with the book.
Thank you for sharing that, Janice!
Thanks, Janice! I need to take the books out from my book cabinet and put them on my nightstand too, so I can re-read them! 😄
I have never heard of this classic but as always, so enjoyed reading how it teased its way into your heart. 💛
Thank you, Kimberly! I love "teased its way into your heart"! Thank you for that gem of a comment.
I confess that I had it on my shelf for years and never read it. Of course, it's never too late to buy or borrow another copy.
As you say, David, it's never too late. And as Portia says, you'd probably enjoy it!
I think you'd love it, David, give it a try.
Thank you both for the stories of your relationship and stories around this important work of literature. I am a docent in the Botanical Gardens of The Huntington, also home of the Huntington Library. In the last 25 years an exquisite Chinese Garden has been added and is an adaptation of a scholar garden from the 18th century. If you are ever in Los Angeles, it is worth a visit to Pasadena to take in its beauty. There has been careful scholarship in its creation. There is a large lake and multiple structures such as "The Love of the Lotus Pavillion", all having references to some poem or art or purpose from that time. All of the stone is from Lake Tai (Taihu Limestone) near Suzhou. The carved wood, the stone mosaic grounds, the clay roof tiles were all made in China and installed by Chinese artisans. Jeffrey, I will DM a few photos to you. Thank you for highlighting this Splendour, not completely vanished.
Thank you, Leslie! The images you sent are lovely. Chinese gardens like this have a special magic—and many happy memories for me! I’m grateful to you for your tips and links!
Thanks for sharing the information about the Chinese Garden, Leslie! I will make sure to visit it the next time I am in the area! I am going on a trip in the coming spring, and Suzhou/Lake Tai is on the itinerary!
That sounds like a wonderful trip. I have heard that several of the scholar gardens in the Suzhou area have been restored. this is from 'The Huntington' website https://huntington.org/chinese-garden.
Thank you, Leslie! I recall with fondness such beautiful gardens in China. I visited some in Suzhou many years ago, before this restoration work, I think.
What a recommendation! Worthy of The Books We ❤️ Club. ;)
Thank you, Troy! That's a great series of posts you have about favourite books.
Thanks Jeffrey - I hope you’re keeping one in reserve for your appearance… :)
🙂
Oh, how I love a good story centered around a novel! The idea of Yi discovering The Dream of the Red Chamber under her mother's pillow in her dorm room during Communist China, and Jeffrey using it as diplomatic 'small talk' is the stuff of stories we love to read and watch. And you've convinced me that I need to read it ASAP! xo
The way you were describing made me want to re-read it, again! :-)
Thanks, Lani! I hope you will love it!
Thank you, Lani, for your lovely comments! I hope you enjoy the novel!
I am afraid that I do not know this book, but both of your emotive memories of reading it have encouraged me to add it to my 'to read list'. And the accompanying illustrations look gorgeous.
Thank you!
Thank you, Sarah! I hope you enjoy it. Either way, let me know what you think of it.
What a lovely pair of recommendations. I am slightly embarrassed to say I don't know this book at all, but you do make me want to seek it out.
Thanks, June! I think I discover a book I haven't heard of but want now to read almost every day on Substack (often from you!). I think that's one of the powerful things about this platform
In my teen years, I developed an ambition to read the greatest novel of each major language, preferably in the original language. Sadly, like Jenny in the song who made up her mind to learn foreign languages and then 'In twenty-seven languages, Jenny couldn't say no", my dream of becoming reading fluent in the major languages kept hitting roadblocks. So, I have settled for reading translations - I am currently reading Edith Grossman's excellent translation of 'Don Quixote'. When I compiled my list of classic novels in my teens, I wasn't aware there was a great Chinese novel (I couldn't do internet searches then). Now I know, and another book is added to the to be read list.
Thank you for sharing this, Holly! I hope you are enjoying the wonders of "Don Quixote"! As Yi Xue has said, there are other great Chinese novels to choose from (though I'd start with The Dream). And a modern (20th-century) classic is “Fortress Besieged” by Qian Zhongshu.
Years ago, I tried reading Don Quixote in Spanish (I still have the copy) and felt like I wasn't understanding enough to continue. But now, reading it in English, it sometimes feels like I'm revisiting familiar territory - I think that while I wasn't understanding the finer details in Spanish, I was still understanding some of the larger narrative.
Thanks for the recommendations. I set a goal of one great novel from each major language because there are many books and so little time to read them!
You're right about the limited time! I'd be interested to see your list of novels on that list! I haven't set myself a target (yet), but I feel that reading novels in translation has given me access to aspects of culture that might be hard to get in other ways.
I added books to the list as I became aware of their existence and cultural importance. Looking back, I don't think I had found that many - it is a bit shocking how little English speakers know of the cultural treasures of other languages. Also, the most influential novel is often debated. So here is my short list:
Russian: There is no consensus about the most influential - I read Tolstoy's 'War and Peace' in my teens and Dostoevsky's 'The Brothers Karamazov' last year.
French: In my teens, I read a lot of translated popular French novels by Dumas and Verne (I have also read Verne's 'Le tour du monde en 80 jours' in French), but my favorite was the abridged translation of 'Les Miserables' that I read. I read the first two parts of 'Les Miserables' (Fantine & Cosette) in French, but never finished it. I kept getting lost in Hugo's interminable descriptions.
Italian: I have yet to find a copy of a translation of Alessandro Manzoni's 'The Betrothed', but I hope to one day.
Norwegian: I didn't learn of the existence of Sigrid Unset's 'Kristen Lavransdatter' until adulthood, but it is on my to be read someday list.
Persian: It is an epic historical poem, not a novel, but I would like to find a copy of the 'Shahnameh' in translation - so far I have only found abridged paraphrases. I learned a lot about how much can be lost in such abridged and paraphrased translation from another Persian work. In childhood, I loved reading the sanitized, paraphrased, and abridged version of 'Scheherazade', titled in English as 'Arabian Nights', but when I read, as an adult, an actual translation of the original, it was much darker and more disturbing.
I haven't found any kind of clear guidance on where to start in Indian literature. I am aware of novels like 'Devdas', but once again, translations aren't easy to find.
Thank you for sharing, Holly! Some of those are familiar to me, some new, which makes it a great list from my perspective. And I agree how little we seem to know of writing from other cultures in general. You've got me thinking about new works to explore and I'm grateful for that.
There is more than one great Chinese classic novel, Holly! :)
I'm sure there are! My teenage interest was in reading at least the most influential novel - for example, while there are many great Spanish novels, 'Don Quixote' was the one that laid the foundation.
I'm currently at the beginning stages of a retranslation project of 紅樓夢. As I've dived into the novel and its world, I can't help but be impressed by the cynicism Cao Xueqin shows for the world around him. Despite the beauty of his poetry, his magnificent descriptions, and the amazing detail with which he describes each character, there's an underlying feeling of despair and hopelessness in the face of irreversible decline.
The characters are more well rounded than in any novel I can think of. Lin Daiyu is a powerful character with many strengths and flaws. Xue Baochai is far from being just a foil to Lin Daiyu (which is how David Hawkes tends to portray her); she's actually a strong character in her own right, and winds up one of the victims of a world gone mad. And Jia Baoyu is simply fascinating.
Anyway - check out my translation project if you wish: https://redchamber.blog I seriously think the entire book needs to be reconsidered by scholars — particularly Western literary scholars who are stuck with translations that, honestly, are quite mediocre.
Daniel, I agree with your analysis of 紅樓夢 (and the translations of this gigantic work)- there is a reason why an "army" of scholars formed something called 紅學. Philosophies of fatalism and predestination, reflections of literature and culture, and implied morals of humanity were all hidden behind the sentimental love stories and hopeless decline of a family story. It is a Herculean translation task for such a work! I look forward to following your work progress!
BTW, I bought a set (two volumes) of "说红楼梦" by 蒋勋 on my recent trip to Shanghai, per recommendation. Haven't read it yet.
Thank you!
The really cool thing about diving really deep into it is seeing how Cao Xueqin would make these really sly intertextual references to other famous works.
I discovered today a small reference to 《醉花荫》by the famous Song dynasty poet 李清照, for example, which is a poem that has a mood that feels almost like it was written by Lin Daiyu. And that famous ending to that poem, "莫道不銷魂，簾卷西風，人比黃花瘦"... I don't think it can be translated, haha. I've got an article about that coming out, though not until April 10, I think...
But that's the fun part - it's the journey, not the destination!
That's why poetry translation is so impossible and yet so satisfying when you *think* you got it right! lol
I attempted it (translating Chinese poetry to English) a few times; although I never thought I got it just right, I had so much fun in the struggle.
Here is to the journey! 🍻
Thank you, Daniel, for your fascinating comments and for sharing information about your translation. All great literature needs great translations if it's to thrive across cultures and through time. I will check it out and I wish you luck.
Catching up with this and now know of a great work of literature about which I'd never heard. Thank you for that. It's now on the list.
That’s wonderful to hear! Would love to hear your thoughts after you read it!
Me, too! Any comments on a book from @A. Jay Adler are worth reading!
Wonderful
Thank you!
I am reading Musil you recommended. Father more you tempt to read 紅楼夢. When can I sleep?
I hope you're enjoying the Musil! But maybe I should start recommending shorter books…